Tolerance and/or standards?
On one hand, it's nice that some in the Orthodox world are tolerant of those who are not as observant as they are, or who aren't observant at all.
On the other hand, how does one balance tolerance with the need to know whether someone else's observance level resembles one's own observance level enough to make them reliable for such matters as kashrut?
Even some of us Conservative Jews have problems balancing tolerance and standards. I benefit from other Jews' tolerance of my (current) unwillingness to give up traveling (by means other than my own two feet) on Shabbat/Sabbath and Chagim/major holidays and eating hot cooked dairy foods in non-kosher restaurants, but I also suffer from not knowing whether I can trust people who bring packaged baked goods without a hechsher (rabbinical seal certifying that a product is kosher) to a pot-luck meal in a synagogue to use only kosher ingredients when cooking their homemade dishes.
On the other hand, how does one balance tolerance with the need to know whether someone else's observance level resembles one's own observance level enough to make them reliable for such matters as kashrut?
Even some of us Conservative Jews have problems balancing tolerance and standards. I benefit from other Jews' tolerance of my (current) unwillingness to give up traveling (by means other than my own two feet) on Shabbat/Sabbath and Chagim/major holidays and eating hot cooked dairy foods in non-kosher restaurants, but I also suffer from not knowing whether I can trust people who bring packaged baked goods without a hechsher (rabbinical seal certifying that a product is kosher) to a pot-luck meal in a synagogue to use only kosher ingredients when cooking their homemade dishes.
Then, of course, there's the hot-button issue of when welcoming non-Jewish spouses crosses the line into what seems to be an approval of intermarriage. I think I expressed the tolerance/standards dilemma on this subject reasonably well in my comment to this book review by Sheyna:
I don't have a clue. Do you? How do you manage the balance between tolerance and standards? The floor is open.The whole issue of intermarriage is fraught with difficulties. How do we support conversion by those who've married into the Jewish family but haven't yet joined it? How do we welcome people while still maintaining appropriate distinctions between Jews and non-Jews? I don't have a clue.
posted by Shira Salamone at 10:22 AM
18 Comments:
"Intermarriage is frought with difficulities?" Intermarriage is forbidden by halachah! When did the Conservative movement lose sight of this?
Once Conservative rabbis started allowing conversions of convienence, in which non-Jewish spouses take a class and go in the mikvah yet continue to eat treif and celebrate Xmass, it opened the door to what is common now in which people interrmary with the idea that maybe the non-Jewish spouse will convert down the road, but if they don't so what, we can always convert the kids later (if the mother is not Jewish.) I think within 5-10 years Conservative will adopt patralineal descent. Some Conservative temples already have unoffocially, and it seems like a significant amount of the laity want it, or view it as de facto policy.
It terms of tolerance, yes treat interrmarried people with the same respect you would anyone else, but it is not intolerant to admit that a Jew is a Jew and a non-Jew is a non-Jew.
Anon., I object: I know a number of Jews by Choice who were converted by Conservative rabbis, and I can assure you that not a single one of them observes Xmas!
"I think within 5-10 years Conservative will adopt patralineal descent." That has occurred to me. :(
Anon., I object: I know a number of Jews by Choice who were converted by Conservative rabbis, and I can assure you that not a single one of them observes Xmas!
I did not mean to disparrage anyone who is a serious and committed Jew by choice. I do have some Conservative relatives who married non-Jews and had "conversions" only to please the parents. This is not a Jew by choice as they did not chose Judaism, but are only going through some motions in order to rubber stamp their intermarriage as being OK. And yes, in some of these families the non-Jewish spouse celebrates Xmass. I was married on December 24th and one of my wife's cousin's came without his bogus-conversion wife because she was celebrating nitel-nacht with her family. Maybe people like this are the minority, but even one is too many. The Conservative movement needs to adandon conversions for the sake of marriage and only have conversions because someone wants to be Jewish. Conversions for the sake of marriage are a reform invention that Conservative initially rejected and once they started doing it they pulled a "1984" and claimed that it had always really been OK and that the idea that you could not convert for marriage was an Orthodox invention.
If the C movement officially allowed patralineal descent, would you cease affiliation with the movement?
I think that one could make a case that "conversion for the sake of marriage" goes all the way back to the days of the Avot/Ancestors. I'm not talking about midrash/rabbinical interpretive stories here, I'm talking about Torah sheh-bi-ch'tav/the Written Bible: Nowhere in Torah sheh-bi-ch'tav is there any indication that any of the Imahot/Mothers actually converted to Judaism, and yet they're certainly all considered Jews. My understanding is that, at that point in West Asian history, a woman automatically took on her husband's religion. The first recorded conversion li-sh'ma/conversion without ulterior motives was that of Ruth--though no official conversion ceremony existed at that time, I hold "Amech ami, v'elokayich elokai/Your people will be my people and your G-d my G-d" to be a declaration of renunciation of past religious affiliation and a declaration of allegiance to HaShem.
"If the C movement officially allowed patralineal descent, would you cease affiliation with the movement?" In all honesty, Anon., I don't know. There are other factors to consider. I have a post in the works for next week--I'll try to add to it, or post separately, to answer your question.
Reframing Liberal Judaism
Larry,
Great find. That's why I found no comfort in the Conservative Movement that my wife came from. I remember being in Shul listening to someone drone on about Sen. Lieberman, calling him a Jew, and making a big deal about his being Orthodox. Not, a we respect him despite Orthodoxy, but elevated above his own.
I have the same problem in the Modern Orthodox camp, I LOATH listening to people call Chareidi and Chareidi leaning individuals "more religious," adopting their framework.
A true Reform Jew thinks that he is observing Judaism correcting, and his Orthodox brethren are backwards and hidebound. A lazy Jew affiliated with the Reform movement looks at the Orthodox as the true Jews, and shows up there because he is comfortable.
If you don't believe you have truth, you aren't following a religion, it's a social club. Unless you think you've got truth, why pursue the faith.
Nowhere in Torah sheh-bi-ch'tav is there any indication that any of the Imahot/Mothers actually converted to Judaism, and yet they're certainly all considered Jews
This was pre-Sinai, there were no Jews in the way we think of them now. We are called the Bnai Israel, becuase it is only through descent from Yaakov that we are a people. In fact, the Talmud and Midrash says that Avraham did not observe Shabbat on Friday night, but started Saturday morning, accoring to the non-Jewish calulation of when the 7th day started, because he knew that as a non-Jew, who was not allowed to keep Shabbat entirely. The matriarchs were certainly monotheist, the patriarchs could not and would not have married them otherwise.
As far as Ruth and a conversion ceremony, their certainly was such ceremony at the time, as it was given in the oral law at Sinai. It involved a beis din and mikvah.
I don't understand what the current Conservative standards for converstion ARE. Any of my relatives that had Conservative conversions took a class ABOUT Judaism, but were not expected to change their behavior other than not being Xtian. I could take a class ABOUT communism, but it wouldn't make me a communist. If these people were not expected to keep kosher or keep Shabbat (by Conservative standards) what exactly ARE conservative converts expected to do or change about their lifestyle?
Anon, I'm talking about Torah sheh-Bi-Ch'tav, the Written Torah. I'm clearly not as literal a believer as you, especially regarding Talmud and Midrash, which seem to prove their case after the fact. There's no proof that Avraham Avinu/Abraham our Father either did or did not consider himself a Jew, which identity, as you stated, didn't really exist yet. Nor do we have any real proof from Torah sheh-Bi-Ch'tav that the Imahot/Mother were monotheists. And Megillat Esther/the Book of Esther itself says nothing whatsoever about Ruth having gone before a beit din and/or immersed in a mikveh/ritual bath.
On the other hand, I understand your concern about Conservative conversion classes: "Any of my relatives that had Conservative conversions took a class ABOUT Judaism, but were not expected to change their behavior other than not being Xtian. I could take a class ABOUT communism, but it wouldn't make me a communist. If these people were not expected to keep kosher or keep Shabbat (by Conservative standards) what exactly ARE conservative converts expected to do or change about their lifestyle?" I know some pretty observant Jews by Choice who converted under Conservative auspices, but others may not be as observant. That is a legitimate concern.
Larry and Al, you're next.
Larry, thanks for the link. That's a very thoughtful essay.
Miami Al, you said, "If you don't believe you have truth, you aren't following a religion, it's a social club." One of the unintended consequences of Rabbi Mordechai Kaplan's description of Judaism as an evolving religious civilization was the downplaying, on the part of some of the Reconstructionist laity, of the religious aspect of the Jewish civilization in favor of the cultural aspect. My husband and I first began to become disillusioned about the Reconstructionist Movement over 20 years ago, when, at one of their conventions, we saw an organizer frantically search the room for a layperson, any layperson, knowledgeable enough to lead Birkat HaMazon/Grace after Meals in Hebrew. This led us to wonder just how serious some of these laypersons were about the religion part of the Jewish civilization. It was never Kaplan's intention for Reconstructionist Judaism to become a social club, but we were concerned that the movement might be headed in that direction.
We learned an important lesson from a friend of ours who was raised a Yiddish Secularist: He had become so convinced from experience that Jewish culture divorced from Jewish religion could not survive that he sent his kids to a Jewish day school to ensure that they would become fluent in Hebrew and Jewish practice instead of Yiddish and Jewish culture.
Larry and Miami Al (and all), you might find find this discussion of "Reframing Liberal Judaism" worth a look (and perhaps a comment).
I think that one could make a case that "conversion for the sake of marriage" goes all the way back to the days of the Avot/Ancestors. I'm not talking about midrash/rabbinical interpretive stories here, I'm talking about Torah sheh-bi-ch'tav/the Written Bible:
Furthermore, based on the Torah shebichtav, one could make a case for patrilineal descent: Joseph's wife Asenat was Egyptian and not Jewish, yet their children Ephraim and Menasheh became 2 of the tribes of Israel.
"Furthermore, based on the Torah shebichtav, one could make a case for patrilineal descent: Joseph's wife Asenat was Egyptian and not Jewish, yet their children Ephraim and Menasheh became 2 of the tribes of Israel"
Again, this happened BEFORE the given of the Torah and Har Sinai.
Post-Sinai, there was matrilineal descent.
Anon, sorry, but I think BZ has a point--as I commented previously here, there's no record *in Megillat Ruth/the Book of Ruth itself* (sorry I said Megillat [Book of] Esther by mistake in my previous comment) that indicates that Ruth appeared before a Bet Din and/or immersed in a mikveh, and her conversion took place *after* the giving of the Torah on Har Sinai. Did conversion as we now know it exist in Ruth's time?
If I'm reading this correctly, the Ohr Samayach website says here that the matrilineal-descent rule is codified in the Talmud--it appears to me to be based only loosely on Biblical texts.
In response to Anon comments. I'm not sure what your relatives conversion was like, but all conservative conversions require you to take classes to learn about Judaism, and then when the person and the rabbi decide the person goes to the beit din where they are asked questions about the chagim, kashrut, whatever the beit din decides and then once the rabbis talk together decide to accept the convert or not and if they do then the convert goes into the mikvah. I don't think that you should generalize conversions for the conservative movement upon a few people.
As a Jew by choice that has family that is all non-Jewish I DO NOT observe Christian holidays at all like Christmas, but I will come to the family event to see family and talk to them.
Shalom Colleen, I'm with you on this--I know a number of Jews by Choice who converted under Conservative aupices, and all of them do far more than refrain from being Christians. Many of them come to synagogue on a regular basis, many keep kosher homes, some send/have sent their children to Jewish day schools. Yes, some Conservative Jews by Choice are less observant, but the majority of Conservative Jews by Choice of my acquaintance are quite serious about their Jewish identity.
Once someone converts they are still a Jew even if they lapse. Unfortunately, I do know converts who have later intermarried, batei din who asked no questions of the convert standing before them (in one case the av beit din explained that it would be an insult to the sponsoring rabbi to ask questions - if the sponsor said they were ready, then they were ready), and many converts who started out observant but gradually declined in the level of their observance to match those with whom they mostly associated.
I see the immense damage done to sincere converts by the witch hunt currently going on in the O community and it makes me very reluctant to go around question whether someone who converted is 'really a Jew' or not. As I don't have a position of community leadership, it isn't really a problem that comes up often, praise Hashem.
" . . . many converts who started out observant but gradually declined in the level of their observance to match those with whom they mostly associated." I've encountered that approach in both Jews by Choice and "born Jews."
Larry, the witch hunt against gerim is a scandal. Some converts have posted that they're afraid to make aliyah, lest their conversions be deemed invalid. Hillel must be turning in his grave.
Shira, have you ever considered the possibility that the matrilineal descent rule discourages the non-Jewish male spouses of Jewish women from converting to Judaism? After all, why bother converting to Judaism if one's children are already going to be Jewish in any case?
Indeed, one can certainly say that the matrilineal descent rule is essentially a carte blanche for female Jews and their female-line descendants to constantly intermarry if they will so desire. I'm serious. After all, their children are going to be Jewish in any case, and their female and female-line children are going to be able to intermarry with impunity without jeopardizing their future children's Jewish status for an unlimited number of generations.
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